Counter motionI move amendment No. 1
To delete all the words after Dáil Éireann and substitute:-
- acknowledges that the untold story of those women who were in Magdalen laundries needs to be listened to with compassion and the facts about the Magdalen laundries need to be established and made public;
- is conscious of the need to respect the rights of all concerned;
- notes that the Irish Human Rights Commission Assessment of the Human Rights Issues Arising in relation to the Magdalen Laundries in November 2010 had recommended in the context of a mechanism to investigate matters that
" Such a mechanism should first examine the extent of the State's involvement in and responsibility for:
-The girls and women entering the laundries
-The conditions in the laundries
- The manner in which girls and women left the laundries and
- End-of life issues for those who remained.";
- welcomes the fact that this Government, shortly after taking office in 2011, decided to establish an inter-Departmental Committee, chaired by an independent person, to establish the facts of State involvement in Magdalen laundries;
- welcomes the fact that the religious congregations who ran the Magdalen laundries, those individuals who were in Magdalen laundries and their advocacy and representative groups have all engaged with the Committee;
- notes that Senator McAleese has recently advised that the Committee has made excellent progress despite the considerable challenges faced. A significant level of information and documentation has been identified. However, relevant records continue to be identified by Government Departments and State Agencies and the Committee also continues to receive new submissions from representative and advocacy groups, with a submission in excess of over 100 pages only received from one such group as recently as 15 August, 2012;
- agrees that it would be wrong for the Committee to conclude its work without examining the additional material and welcomes the excellent progress made by the Committee and the statement that the Committee intends to present a substantial Final Report as soon as possible and at the latest before the end of this year;
- commits to an open and meaningful response once the Inter- Departmental Committee has reported."
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I am here today on behalf of my colleague, Minister Shatter, to address the motion before the House. The first point I would like to make is that Members should be sensitive to the concerns of those who have been in Magdalen Laundries and should not aggravate their position by resorting to clichés about Magdalen institutions that are not sustained by facts. I, and my colleague Minister Shatter, have met with many of the women who were in Magdalen Laundries and I understand Senator McAleese has met all those who have come forward.
All of the women we met told their stories with a great deal of dignity and they deserve our respect. Also, none of those we met were unmarried mothers and the branding of Magdalen Laundries as a place for “fallen” women is a cause of great distress to them.
We have also met with the various representative groups involved and those advocating on behalf of those women. We have listened carefully to all of them and we understand and share their desire after so many years to finally address their concerns and bring closure to this difficult chapter of their lives. I can assure the House that this Government is committed to addressing these issues. In fact, we begun this process by establishing the Inter-Departmental Committee under the independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese, and we are fully committed to addressing these issues once their final report is received. At all times too, we have been conscious of the need to progress these matters as quickly as possible.
I say that I have a lot of sympathy for the position of those who ended up in Magdalen Laundries. Indeed, I have long held that view and of course I know many of the women involved and what it meant for them. They existed in an era where Irish society could be harsh and even hostile to those less fortunate. It goes without saying and I am sure many in this House will agree that life in an institution can be a very poor substitute for the emotional and other support that is normally found in a family setting.
Turning to the Government amendment, the main point behind the amendment is that it is premature to have this debate without having the benefit of Senator McAleese's report and the factual information that it will bring. The Magdalen institutions that were still in operation when this State came into existence were all run by congregations of nuns. Like convents, they operated behind walls and closed doors isolated from the mainstream of the community and their story has not been told. The report of the Inter-Departmental Committee will hopefully give us the first comprehensive, objective insight into that world.
I do not doubt the sincerity of the women whom I have met, and one has to have sympathy with them for the hardships they have faced. Anyone who has read the Ryan report and its account of the industrial school system that operated in this State has to be mindful of the possibility of abuses in other institutions run by religious orders. However, we cannot leap to conclusions without following fair procedures and trying in so far as we can to establish the facts.
As far as I am aware, allegations of abuse in Magdalen Laundries has never been the subject of scrutiny by the courts, a Commission of Investigation or Tribunal of Inquiry so the facts remain undetermined. I presume that that is one of the reasons that led in June 2010 to the Justice for Magdalenes contacting the Irish Human Rights Commission and requesting that the Commission conduct an enquiry into the treatment of women and girls who resided in Magdalen Laundries. The Irish Human Rights Commission decided not to conduct an enquiry. However in its assessment published in November 2010, it considered that the issues raised warranted a statutory investigation. They recommended a two stage approach. The first stage was to examine the extent of the State's involvement in and responsibility for what happened in the Magdalen laundries. Then, if State involvement and responsibility was established, a larger scale review of what occurred should take place and in appropriate cases redress should be granted where warranted.
The previous Government did not take any action but within a matter of months of taking office, this Government moved to set up the Inter-Departmental Committee under the impeccable independent chairmanship of Senator Martin McAleese . Senator McAleese was appointed to the chairmanship of this Committee so as to ensure that there would be full confidence in the workings of the Committee and no legitimate issue could arise with regard to the Committee properly fulfilling in full its mandate. Both Minister Shatter and the Government are very grateful to Senator McAleese for undertaking this important task and for the commitment he has shown to it. Membership of the Committee is drawn from representatives of six Government Departments; Justice and Equality; Health; Environment, Community and Local Government; Education and Skills; Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; and Children and Youth Affairs. Relevant Departments and State Offices not represented on the Committee have also been contacted with a view to checks being conducted on their records.
It was set up by this Government to establish the facts of State involvement with the Magdalen Laundries, to clarify any State interaction, and to produce a narrative detailing such interaction. It effectively is carrying out the first examination as recommended by the Commission. It was deliberately decided not to start with a statutory inquiry. Our experience of statutory inquiries is that they are slow and expensive and the Government was conscious that many of the women concerned are elderly. It was confident that a non statutory examination would be much quicker, less costly and equally if not more effective. The indications from Senator McAleese are that he expects to be in a position to submit a substantial Final Report in a matter of months and certainly before the end of the year. This will serve to confirm that the Government was right in taking this approach.
My understanding is that the religious congregations are giving their full cooperation. This is on a voluntary basis and has not given rise to the adversarial approach that often arises in statutory enquiries. I am glad to see that both the original motion and the Government amendment give due recognition to this cooperation.
The House will know that the Committee undertook to produce an interim report within 3 months of its establishment and that report was published within that timeframe in October, 2011. That report acknowledged the co-operation the Committee was receiving from Government Departments, the religious orders and representative groups of women formerly resident in the Laundries. The Committee also reported that extensive searches of all state records had commenced with results being reported on a regular basis. While the Interim Progress
Report of the Committee expressed the hope and intention that the Committee could conclude its work by mid-2012, it did point out that “If the volume of records uncovered or available resources, including personnel, vary substantially from those currently anticipated, it may be necessary to adjust this intended time-line”.
I understand that a significant level of information and documentation has already been identified by the Committee and drafting of the final report has begun. However, relevant records continue to be identified and the Committee also continues to receive new submissions from representative and advocacy groups. Indeed, a submission in excess of over 100 pages was only recently received from one such group on 15 August, 2012.
I am firmly of the view that the Committee cannot be criticised for taking the time necessary to consider such material or indeed any material which may of course have the potential to enhance the fact finding process and the eventual outcome of the Committee’s work. Senator McAleese has advised that the Committee intends to produce its final report as soon as possible but at the latest before the end of the year. He has explained that information is still being identified which has the capacity to add to the overall outcome of the Committee’s work in a meaningful way, and the Committee feels that it would be improper to conclude without examining this additional material.
Minister Shatter and I have long believed that the issues raised by or, on behalf of those women and girls who were resident in the Magdalen Laundries must be addressed. We have great sympathy for these women and want to help in bringing some closure for the individuals concerned. This Government has put a process in place, all involved – the various Government Departments and Agencies, the religious congregations who ran these institutions, and the representative and advocacy groups of the women who formerly resided there - are co-operating with this process, and we must now see it through.
All the indications are that the report of the Inter-Departmental Committee will put us in a position to have a meaningful debate on the issues raised by the different groups representing those who have been in Magdalen laundries and provide a proper response. I think the House is in full agreement on that issue. Both the original motion and the Government amendment welcome the establishment of the Committee and commits to an open and meaningful response to all the issues when the report is received. Indeed the only difference is that the Government is not going to pre-empt the report of the Committee by either making decisions or assertions of fact.
We have been told that we will have the report as soon as possible and certainly before the end of year which is only a matter of months. The only reasonable course of action now is to await that report. We will be better informed, the report will be published, and we will have a much clearer understanding of the facts involved.
In fairness to everyone, I believe we will all be better placed then to respond fully to the issues and for that reason I commend the Government amendment to the House.
Thank you.